ok, this has been submitted.
Bard Team Lead Report Patch 1.60 3/2003
In order of importance:
--Bards and Empathy
--Immunity Timer and Our Songs
--Bard's endurance regen
--Bard survivability in RvR
--Bard Defense
--Song radius
--Chargeable Instruments
--Usefulness of Confuse and Lullaby in RvR
--Run Song Dropping
--Ameliorating Melodies
--Bard Quest Rewards
--Interface Issues
--Resist Chants
____________________________________________________
Bards and Empathy
Bards should have had strength or dexterity as a rising stat instead of empathy. Our empathy rises every other level, but does not benefit us at all. Strength would benefit us, as we are considered an hybrid melee class. Dexterity would benefit us as a casting class. Could we please see something done regarding this longstanding issue?
Also, the creation interface needs to be updated, so that it notes under EMPATHY that this stat does not benefit bards. This needs to be done, so that future bards can take full benefit of their starting points, rather than wasting points in EMP because they trusted the creation screen that incorrectly tells them EMP is important (because it is highlighted). Simply add some wording to the EMP description to note it's useless to bards.
____________________________________________________
PVP server issues:
On PvP servers, after you release from being player killed or exp killed, the immunity timer is 2 mins. (YES 2 mins. It's different than the zoning timers). Only the bard class can't play pulse spells like speed, end, or power song during this immunity period. You get a message along the lines of "You cannot cast spells on others while Immunity timer is on". It is affecting bards (and minstrels), but not other classes with speed buffs (i.e.: enchanters, wardens). Please look into this. It appears to be a bug. The current work around to this is to target yourself, then you can start song. Songs should not be requiring a target to start.
____________________________________________________
Bard endurance regen
Bards take a significant defensive penalty to provide endurance regen. Previously, we took this penalty to provide a unique ability. The ability is no longer unique. In fact, the other realms now have better forms of end regen. How better you ask?
Midgard shaman can buff multiple groups with their group spell. They do not have to remain in the group, nor even remain alive, for the group to retain the benefit. In addition, they usually cast this spell between battles, where there is little chance of interruption.
Paladins chant is not interruptible. Paladins can benefit from their own regen in melee combat. Paladins can defend thenselves while providing regen.
Bards cannot benefit from their own end regen in melee combat. They lose significant defense while providing the regen. The song is highly interruptible.
Possible Solutions (note: these are separate solutions):
1) Make our drum 1H and equippable in either hand. This would also allow us to ready all instruments, and remove the need to swap an instrument from inventory (thus removing one of the interface frustrations bards have-- minstrels do not suffer form this as much, because they rarely equip a lute for heal song, so they can function with only 2 readied instruments). This would allow bards the flexibility to chose instrument+weapon or instrument+shield. It would also remove part of the the penalty we suffer to provide endurance regen, that the other realms do not suffer. (Note: yes we suffer the same penalty to provide group power regen, but in this case, minstrels who provide the same group power regen suffer similar penalty). This would also add to the fun factor of playing a bard, as it allows us to take a more active role in group combat, because we can melee while singing end regen. One of the biggest complaints I hear is how boring bards are to play because all they do is play end regen and stand there with an occasional heal tossed here and there.
Note: In this instance, I dont recommend the change apply to minstrels due to what songs a minstrel provides with drum. If they got this change, it would remove the penalty they suffer to provide power regen (while bards would retain it), AND it would apply to their speed song as well. IF the change affected both drum and flute AND instrument requirements were changed so that minstrels speed and power werent on the same instrument, then I could see this applying to both classes.
2) Make end song a chant (ala our resist chants which consume no power) for bards, with no instrument requirement. This would allow bards to take a more active role in group combat and would entirely remove the defensive penalty we currently suffer to provide end regen.. Bards would also be able to benefit from their own end regen in melee.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Bard Survivability
There is a growing concern in the bard community in relation to bards survivability in RvR. We lack offensivelywe cannot attack and do significant damage from range, nor can we do significant damage in melee combat once engaged. We do not have defensive means to endure melee combat, compared to our attackers. This was a MAJOR concern prior to 1.51, but diminished somewhat with the introduction of instamez to the bards Music line. With all the recent changes to mez effectiveness, and the added abilities to prevent flight, bards are once again finding themselves hard pressed to stay alive. Our primary defense on the battlefield has been 2 things, mez and fleeing; both of which have suffered a loss of effectiveness with the recent patches. We either need more offensive options we can use while providing song, or more defensive options to help us stay alive while providing song.
We want to be able to provide the group support we were designed to provide, but we cannot do that if we cannot stay alive. Currently, we are highly identifiable (due to instruments) and one of the easiest kills on the field. There have been many suggestions proposed to help in this area. I will list some of them here. Note, these are a list of individual suggestions to address an issue. It is not intended, nor asked, that all of them be implemented.
1) Give bards a second form of CC, one that is NOT long range. A PBAE snare with short duration (enough to allow us to at least start our song and put a little distance between us and our aggressors). Note we are not looking for a guaranteed escape every time, but something to increase our chance of surviving.
2) An Absorption spell added to our Nurture line
In the Nurture spec line, to address several issues.
1. Nurture spec is mutually exclusive with Melee spec
2. Nurture spec has large gaps within the spec path
3. Bards defensively against pure melee is comparable to a mage (more HP's and slightly more absorb, less defensive options)
To address the issue of Bards being especially vulnerable to melee, grant them a SELF-ONLY "Bunker of Faith" like ability.
This would be a 30second on 10 minute recast timer instant.
The level of Absorb will increase with spec
spec 11 - 20% absorb
spec 20 - 30% absorb
spec 31 - 40% absorb
spec 41 - 50% absorb
3) Allow bards (and minstrels) the ability to sing songs sans instrument at a lower level of effectiveness. This would allow us a more active role in group combat, and go a long way toward putting some fun back into the class. It would also address the issue of the Nurture line being exclusive of our melee. Let our instruments, when equipped, serve as a focus item, making our song more effectiveat the cost of offense/defense.
4) Allow bards (and minstrels) to enter combat with instruments, like we use to be able to. (Why exactly was this ability taken away?). Even if the instruments arent coded to do any damage, we could at least do some damage with a damage add cast on us. We could be actively doing SOMETHING.
5) Some type of SELF ONLY bladeturn spell. This would allow us to stay alive a few more seconds, in the hopes that our group can come to our aid.
6) More offense in the form of a second shout. Perhaps coding our spell line so we retain access to a lower level shout. Previously, our single shout was balanced with skald/minstrels 2 shouts via power costs and timers. Now with recent changes, that balance is skewed.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Bard Defense
We are told that bard's have significant defense, in the form of RI armor, shield, potentially high weapon spec, Evade2 and heals (no instas...so I don't really see them as defense). Oh, and of course, possible instamez usable once every 10mins if we specced Music high enough (not available until nearly level 30).
Unfortunately, bards and minstrels are the only classes in the game who essentially take a significant defensive penalty when engaging in their class-defining ability, with no offensive reward in return. Why do I call it a penalty? We lose half of our defense when holding an instrument. We lose the defense of our shield. We lose the offense/defense of our weapon. The only protection that remains is evade and our armor itself, and instamez if we are specced high enough (which we cannot get until about level 30).
It would seem logical for bards (and minstrels) to get RAs which would allow us to enhance those means of defense usable when we are engaged in our class-defining ability. I think it is only reasonable for bards to ask for access to a RA that boosts their only form of damage avoidance when engaged in their class defining ability. Please allow Bards access to Dodger.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Song Radius:
Heal range was upped to 2000 radius. The stated purpose for this change was to allow healers to stand back from the fray, and be able to escape should rez be needed. This change didnt really help bards, because we cannot stand more than 1000 from our group, due to our song radius. We are stuck remaining in the front lines, yet we lack the defenses to remain alive on the front lines. Can the range of our songs be increased, or defense options added so we can stand in the fray?
__________________________________________________________________________________
Will we be able to charge our instruments in the future?
It seems a bit unfair that bards/minstrels must hold these instruments to provide their class-defining abilities, yet they cannot use charges on them in their own defense. If we must be saddled with the requirement that inhibits us defensively and offensively (we cannot enter combat mode without dropping song), then please let us charge them so they can provide some modicum of defense to us.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Is it possible to make Confuse and Lullaby more useful in RvR?
Currently, Confuse has limited PvE usefulness and only one effect in RvR (instakill theurgist pets). Lullaby does nothing at all in RvR, save act as a means to interrupt casters and archers. Neither is usable in the spirit with which the spells were designed.
Can we look into making Confuse effect players?
Perhaps wiping the target window for a brief period (3secs?), or causing them to cycle through nearest targets randomly for a short period of time. Granted, the attack ally portion of the spell cannot be implemented, due to being unable to attack friendless...but making the confuse portion actually work on players would be a help. It would be a means of "aggro management" in RvR.
***BROKEN SPELL*** Lullaby should wipe a player's target, forcing him to retarget. It's an amnesia spell, yet it does not cause players to "forget" their target, as the Herald claims it should.
On a side note: For all classes who get single target amnesia in their baseline, we need higher levels of this spell. The spell is essential in PvE aggro management, yet with spell resists being based on spell level rather than character level, those with this tool are forced to try to lull up to 70th level mobs with a level 2-8 spell. We get higher AE versions of the spell but are usually unable to use them due to the fact that they break mez/root.
____________________________________________________
Run song dropping
Im still getting reports that run song is dropping when someone simply targets the bard. Being targeted should not be considered in combat
On a similar note, is bards song effect supposed to drop from the bard, when ONE member of the group enters combat? It did not previously work in this manner, but seems to be working such now. The other members of the group retain speed, but the one in combat and the bard are losing speed.
____________________________________________________
Could the cost of Ameliorating melodies be re-evaluated?
Could we possibly see either a reduction in cost (10 points), or reduce the timer to 15mins. The benefit provided seems low compared to the cost.
____________________________________________________
Quest Instruments:
The benefit of boosts to stats on instruments for bards is marginal. Being as we tend to swap instruments often, instrument stats rarely end up truly being beneficial. Bards have a number of high-end quests that award instruments. Instruments are easy to come by. They drop in several places, can be crafted and can also be purchased in Darkness Falls.
What would benefit bards more is quest rewards in the form of armor accessories (belts, bracers, rings, jewels, and cloaks) with appropriate stat boosts geared toward bards. There are not a lot of bard items of this sort available for the 25-40 crowd. Changing quests to reward such items would be helpful.
Specific quests:
West Wind was stated in a patch that this was changed to award a ring still awards an instrument.
Touch of the Amadan Dubh Could we possibly get this changed to a bardic bracer (or belt) rather than a lute?
____________________________________________________
Interface Issues
Nothing is more frustrating than getting tied up trying to switch hotbars. Bards currently have so many things to hotkey; we fill up 4+ hot bars easily (of not more). Trying to switch in the lag of RvR, when time is critical is a nightmare. Also, the interface is not very conducive to instrument swapping either. There have been many suggestions brought up to try to alleviate some of the cumbersome aspects of the current interface.
1) Code instruments to auto-equip from inventory. Have the game check our pack. If we are carrying the appropriate instrument (with the required 71% or higher condition), then let us start the song. Taking the hassle of instrument swapping out of the equation would go a long way to reduce the current frustrations with the current interface. It is just not conducive to swapping instruments. This would also allow bards to make better use of hotbar space. This would be a suggestion for both bards and minstrels.
2) As was mentioned previously, allow bards (and minstrels) the option of singing songs without instrument, at a lower effectiveness.
The recent addition of more hotkeys, and more qbars was indeed beneficial, but we still have a problem with the aspect of swapping out to a 3rd instrument in an interface that is cumbersome at best.
____________________________________________________
Resist Chants
In their current form, our resist chants are nearly useless. There are very few instances when a chant that only buffs a SINGLE resist is more beneficial than one of our songsthis is even more true now that all realms have end regen. We are unable to sing both at the same time. Please review our chants. Making them combined chants like the Paladin ones would go a long way to making these more useful than the current versions, and may even give us a reason to put them on our already overloaded hotbars.
Bard Team Lead Report Patch 1.60 3/2003
In order of importance:
--Bards and Empathy
--Immunity Timer and Our Songs
--Bard's endurance regen
--Bard survivability in RvR
--Bard Defense
--Song radius
--Chargeable Instruments
--Usefulness of Confuse and Lullaby in RvR
--Run Song Dropping
--Ameliorating Melodies
--Bard Quest Rewards
--Interface Issues
--Resist Chants
____________________________________________________
Bards and Empathy
Bards should have had strength or dexterity as a rising stat instead of empathy. Our empathy rises every other level, but does not benefit us at all. Strength would benefit us, as we are considered an hybrid melee class. Dexterity would benefit us as a casting class. Could we please see something done regarding this longstanding issue?
Also, the creation interface needs to be updated, so that it notes under EMPATHY that this stat does not benefit bards. This needs to be done, so that future bards can take full benefit of their starting points, rather than wasting points in EMP because they trusted the creation screen that incorrectly tells them EMP is important (because it is highlighted). Simply add some wording to the EMP description to note it's useless to bards.
____________________________________________________
PVP server issues:
On PvP servers, after you release from being player killed or exp killed, the immunity timer is 2 mins. (YES 2 mins. It's different than the zoning timers). Only the bard class can't play pulse spells like speed, end, or power song during this immunity period. You get a message along the lines of "You cannot cast spells on others while Immunity timer is on". It is affecting bards (and minstrels), but not other classes with speed buffs (i.e.: enchanters, wardens). Please look into this. It appears to be a bug. The current work around to this is to target yourself, then you can start song. Songs should not be requiring a target to start.
____________________________________________________
Bard endurance regen
Bards take a significant defensive penalty to provide endurance regen. Previously, we took this penalty to provide a unique ability. The ability is no longer unique. In fact, the other realms now have better forms of end regen. How better you ask?
Midgard shaman can buff multiple groups with their group spell. They do not have to remain in the group, nor even remain alive, for the group to retain the benefit. In addition, they usually cast this spell between battles, where there is little chance of interruption.
Paladins chant is not interruptible. Paladins can benefit from their own regen in melee combat. Paladins can defend thenselves while providing regen.
Bards cannot benefit from their own end regen in melee combat. They lose significant defense while providing the regen. The song is highly interruptible.
Possible Solutions (note: these are separate solutions):
1) Make our drum 1H and equippable in either hand. This would also allow us to ready all instruments, and remove the need to swap an instrument from inventory (thus removing one of the interface frustrations bards have-- minstrels do not suffer form this as much, because they rarely equip a lute for heal song, so they can function with only 2 readied instruments). This would allow bards the flexibility to chose instrument+weapon or instrument+shield. It would also remove part of the the penalty we suffer to provide endurance regen, that the other realms do not suffer. (Note: yes we suffer the same penalty to provide group power regen, but in this case, minstrels who provide the same group power regen suffer similar penalty). This would also add to the fun factor of playing a bard, as it allows us to take a more active role in group combat, because we can melee while singing end regen. One of the biggest complaints I hear is how boring bards are to play because all they do is play end regen and stand there with an occasional heal tossed here and there.
Note: In this instance, I dont recommend the change apply to minstrels due to what songs a minstrel provides with drum. If they got this change, it would remove the penalty they suffer to provide power regen (while bards would retain it), AND it would apply to their speed song as well. IF the change affected both drum and flute AND instrument requirements were changed so that minstrels speed and power werent on the same instrument, then I could see this applying to both classes.
2) Make end song a chant (ala our resist chants which consume no power) for bards, with no instrument requirement. This would allow bards to take a more active role in group combat and would entirely remove the defensive penalty we currently suffer to provide end regen.. Bards would also be able to benefit from their own end regen in melee.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Bard Survivability
There is a growing concern in the bard community in relation to bards survivability in RvR. We lack offensivelywe cannot attack and do significant damage from range, nor can we do significant damage in melee combat once engaged. We do not have defensive means to endure melee combat, compared to our attackers. This was a MAJOR concern prior to 1.51, but diminished somewhat with the introduction of instamez to the bards Music line. With all the recent changes to mez effectiveness, and the added abilities to prevent flight, bards are once again finding themselves hard pressed to stay alive. Our primary defense on the battlefield has been 2 things, mez and fleeing; both of which have suffered a loss of effectiveness with the recent patches. We either need more offensive options we can use while providing song, or more defensive options to help us stay alive while providing song.
We want to be able to provide the group support we were designed to provide, but we cannot do that if we cannot stay alive. Currently, we are highly identifiable (due to instruments) and one of the easiest kills on the field. There have been many suggestions proposed to help in this area. I will list some of them here. Note, these are a list of individual suggestions to address an issue. It is not intended, nor asked, that all of them be implemented.
1) Give bards a second form of CC, one that is NOT long range. A PBAE snare with short duration (enough to allow us to at least start our song and put a little distance between us and our aggressors). Note we are not looking for a guaranteed escape every time, but something to increase our chance of surviving.
2) An Absorption spell added to our Nurture line
In the Nurture spec line, to address several issues.
1. Nurture spec is mutually exclusive with Melee spec
2. Nurture spec has large gaps within the spec path
3. Bards defensively against pure melee is comparable to a mage (more HP's and slightly more absorb, less defensive options)
To address the issue of Bards being especially vulnerable to melee, grant them a SELF-ONLY "Bunker of Faith" like ability.
This would be a 30second on 10 minute recast timer instant.
The level of Absorb will increase with spec
spec 11 - 20% absorb
spec 20 - 30% absorb
spec 31 - 40% absorb
spec 41 - 50% absorb
3) Allow bards (and minstrels) the ability to sing songs sans instrument at a lower level of effectiveness. This would allow us a more active role in group combat, and go a long way toward putting some fun back into the class. It would also address the issue of the Nurture line being exclusive of our melee. Let our instruments, when equipped, serve as a focus item, making our song more effectiveat the cost of offense/defense.
4) Allow bards (and minstrels) to enter combat with instruments, like we use to be able to. (Why exactly was this ability taken away?). Even if the instruments arent coded to do any damage, we could at least do some damage with a damage add cast on us. We could be actively doing SOMETHING.
5) Some type of SELF ONLY bladeturn spell. This would allow us to stay alive a few more seconds, in the hopes that our group can come to our aid.
6) More offense in the form of a second shout. Perhaps coding our spell line so we retain access to a lower level shout. Previously, our single shout was balanced with skald/minstrels 2 shouts via power costs and timers. Now with recent changes, that balance is skewed.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Bard Defense
We are told that bard's have significant defense, in the form of RI armor, shield, potentially high weapon spec, Evade2 and heals (no instas...so I don't really see them as defense). Oh, and of course, possible instamez usable once every 10mins if we specced Music high enough (not available until nearly level 30).
Unfortunately, bards and minstrels are the only classes in the game who essentially take a significant defensive penalty when engaging in their class-defining ability, with no offensive reward in return. Why do I call it a penalty? We lose half of our defense when holding an instrument. We lose the defense of our shield. We lose the offense/defense of our weapon. The only protection that remains is evade and our armor itself, and instamez if we are specced high enough (which we cannot get until about level 30).
It would seem logical for bards (and minstrels) to get RAs which would allow us to enhance those means of defense usable when we are engaged in our class-defining ability. I think it is only reasonable for bards to ask for access to a RA that boosts their only form of damage avoidance when engaged in their class defining ability. Please allow Bards access to Dodger.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Song Radius:
Heal range was upped to 2000 radius. The stated purpose for this change was to allow healers to stand back from the fray, and be able to escape should rez be needed. This change didnt really help bards, because we cannot stand more than 1000 from our group, due to our song radius. We are stuck remaining in the front lines, yet we lack the defenses to remain alive on the front lines. Can the range of our songs be increased, or defense options added so we can stand in the fray?
__________________________________________________________________________________
Will we be able to charge our instruments in the future?
It seems a bit unfair that bards/minstrels must hold these instruments to provide their class-defining abilities, yet they cannot use charges on them in their own defense. If we must be saddled with the requirement that inhibits us defensively and offensively (we cannot enter combat mode without dropping song), then please let us charge them so they can provide some modicum of defense to us.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Is it possible to make Confuse and Lullaby more useful in RvR?
Currently, Confuse has limited PvE usefulness and only one effect in RvR (instakill theurgist pets). Lullaby does nothing at all in RvR, save act as a means to interrupt casters and archers. Neither is usable in the spirit with which the spells were designed.
Can we look into making Confuse effect players?
Perhaps wiping the target window for a brief period (3secs?), or causing them to cycle through nearest targets randomly for a short period of time. Granted, the attack ally portion of the spell cannot be implemented, due to being unable to attack friendless...but making the confuse portion actually work on players would be a help. It would be a means of "aggro management" in RvR.
***BROKEN SPELL*** Lullaby should wipe a player's target, forcing him to retarget. It's an amnesia spell, yet it does not cause players to "forget" their target, as the Herald claims it should.
On a side note: For all classes who get single target amnesia in their baseline, we need higher levels of this spell. The spell is essential in PvE aggro management, yet with spell resists being based on spell level rather than character level, those with this tool are forced to try to lull up to 70th level mobs with a level 2-8 spell. We get higher AE versions of the spell but are usually unable to use them due to the fact that they break mez/root.
____________________________________________________
Run song dropping
Im still getting reports that run song is dropping when someone simply targets the bard. Being targeted should not be considered in combat
On a similar note, is bards song effect supposed to drop from the bard, when ONE member of the group enters combat? It did not previously work in this manner, but seems to be working such now. The other members of the group retain speed, but the one in combat and the bard are losing speed.
____________________________________________________
Could the cost of Ameliorating melodies be re-evaluated?
Could we possibly see either a reduction in cost (10 points), or reduce the timer to 15mins. The benefit provided seems low compared to the cost.
____________________________________________________
Quest Instruments:
The benefit of boosts to stats on instruments for bards is marginal. Being as we tend to swap instruments often, instrument stats rarely end up truly being beneficial. Bards have a number of high-end quests that award instruments. Instruments are easy to come by. They drop in several places, can be crafted and can also be purchased in Darkness Falls.
What would benefit bards more is quest rewards in the form of armor accessories (belts, bracers, rings, jewels, and cloaks) with appropriate stat boosts geared toward bards. There are not a lot of bard items of this sort available for the 25-40 crowd. Changing quests to reward such items would be helpful.
Specific quests:
West Wind was stated in a patch that this was changed to award a ring still awards an instrument.
Touch of the Amadan Dubh Could we possibly get this changed to a bardic bracer (or belt) rather than a lute?
____________________________________________________
Interface Issues
Nothing is more frustrating than getting tied up trying to switch hotbars. Bards currently have so many things to hotkey; we fill up 4+ hot bars easily (of not more). Trying to switch in the lag of RvR, when time is critical is a nightmare. Also, the interface is not very conducive to instrument swapping either. There have been many suggestions brought up to try to alleviate some of the cumbersome aspects of the current interface.
1) Code instruments to auto-equip from inventory. Have the game check our pack. If we are carrying the appropriate instrument (with the required 71% or higher condition), then let us start the song. Taking the hassle of instrument swapping out of the equation would go a long way to reduce the current frustrations with the current interface. It is just not conducive to swapping instruments. This would also allow bards to make better use of hotbar space. This would be a suggestion for both bards and minstrels.
2) As was mentioned previously, allow bards (and minstrels) the option of singing songs without instrument, at a lower effectiveness.
The recent addition of more hotkeys, and more qbars was indeed beneficial, but we still have a problem with the aspect of swapping out to a 3rd instrument in an interface that is cumbersome at best.
____________________________________________________
Resist Chants
In their current form, our resist chants are nearly useless. There are very few instances when a chant that only buffs a SINGLE resist is more beneficial than one of our songsthis is even more true now that all realms have end regen. We are unable to sing both at the same time. Please review our chants. Making them combined chants like the Paladin ones would go a long way to making these more useful than the current versions, and may even give us a reason to put them on our already overloaded hotbars.
