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stryhf	Re: *	#21	[-]
Posts: 1090 (07/23/03 05:49:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* What will it get us? Anything more than what we have when we group with a druid? will we have to rise nurture to 50 to get it at highest level (we're not champ or friar who can get a skill to 50 naturally). Friars only need 45 for 69/69 delved self buff, not 50, which is effectively 86. At 35, they get 57/57 delved selff buff which is 71. It would make Mastery of Arcane worth something to Bards, as currently it's practically a useless RA. Most Bards I know would have least have that, Nurture 35. You won't find many Druids who play with a Nurture of 39+. And if you do, you usually won't be grouping to of them. Even with MoA3+ buffbots, it requires 3 buffbots to fully buff an entire group. This saves on Conc, and allows Bards (who are a primary target) to self buff after rez. We don't want Dex/Qui as a class fix for defense. We deserve Dex/Qui for the travesty that is Empathy. No other class in game can claim to have a 2nd rising stat that is completely useless. Paladins can come close, but Piety does raise power and is their Acuity stat. No other melee spec class in game lacks a rising stat for WS.
tambori	Re: *	#22	[-]
Posts: 588 (07/23/03 06:06:05) Ex-Bard TL Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* No other melee spec class in game lacks a rising stat for WS Not just melee class Stryhf. Besides friars, bards are the only class IN THE GAME PERIOD who do not get a rising stat that affects melee damage. Friars got a self buff to compensate. Bards got.....
Decon Winter	Re: *	#23	[-]
Posts: 152 (07/23/03 11:06:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	<<< Friars got a self buff to compensate. Bards got..... >>> ...End Song. Deconwinter Master Bard Heart of Oak Igraine
Ororo7	Re: *	#24	[-]
Posts: 13 (07/23/03 14:32:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Bards can't seriously think their RA needs work can they? Have you looked at the Skald RA, Fury of the Gods? Bards seem to heal far better than Shamans. Mid has to rely on 2 healers per group to do well, just as Hib seems to rely on 2 druids. The Shaman Mend spec is a joke. Isn't the only reason your melee damage is low is because you have so many tools to choose from? If you specced weapon all the way to the same level as a skald, you would be doing the exact same damage. In fact, if you took the 50melee/43song spec of a skald, you would hit as hard as a skald, be as fast as a skald, and still have a lot more utility from the base spells. Tweak from that template to even do better. -Leitari, MLF
thylindel	Re: *	#25	[-]
Posts: 73 (07/23/03 15:19:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If a bard speced 50 weapon, 43 "song" they would still not hit as hard as a skald (no spec can change that they are naturalists), they would also have no AE mez of any kind, no DD shout, no insta mez (because those spells are not in their "songs" line)
stryhf	Re: *	#26	[-]
Posts: 1090 (07/23/03 23:26:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* Bards can't seriously think their RA needs work can they? Have you looked at the Skald RA, Fury of the Gods? So, since your RA is gimped, you'd feel better if the Bard's was gimped just as much as yours? *Quote:* Bards seem to heal far better than Shamans. Mid has to rely on 2 healers per group to do well, just as Hib seems to rely on 2 druids. The Shaman Mend spec is a joke. When was the last time you say a Bard standing still to cast heals? If you did and you're a Skald, you're not doing your job of interrupting their healers. *Quote:* Isn't the only reason your melee damage is low is because you have so many tools to choose from? If you specced weapon all the way to the same level as a skald, you would be doing the exact same damage. Except for the little fact you're not mentioning, Skalds can use 2handed weapons. *Quote:* In fact, if you took the 50melee/43song spec of a skald, you would hit as hard as a skald, be as fast as a skald, and still have a lot more utility from the base spells. Tweak from that template to even do better. So if I spec'ed 50 melee/43 'song', I could hit as hard as 'a skald'. I've got a great SS of a skald hitting hitting scale wearing tanks for on average 500+ damage. He's 50 sword and 43 battlesongs. He used a Foe Slayer (5.7 speed). In fact, more than one Skald on Palo/Mid has decided to copy this template due to it's effectiveness as a follow through damage on a MA target. It's called Ragnarok, but I call if Assrape.
Alakhnor	*	#27	[-]
Posts: 205 (07/24/03 05:11:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* Most Bards I know would have least have that, Nurture 35. You won't find many Druids who play with a Nurture of 39+. And if you do, you usually won't be grouping to of them. Even with MoA3+ buffbots, it requires 3 buffbots to fully buff an entire group. This saves on Conc, and allows Bards (who are a primary target) to self buff after rez. We don't want Dex/Qui as a class fix for defense. We deserve Dex/Qui for the travesty that is Empathy. No other class in game can claim to have a 2nd rising stat that is completely useless. Paladins can come close, but Piety does raise power and is their Acuity stat. No other melee spec class in game lacks a rising stat for WS." With one druid, you give 8 +55 str/con buff, 8 +49 dex/qui buffs and 3/4 yellow haste/int buff which is usually quite enough for a full group. Most druid I know have at least 35 in nurture and a good part has 44/31 (including mine), and I 'm close to always grouped with a druid. however, I don't any druid with more than 44 in nurture. I'm not saying bards do not deserve a self-buff, I'm just saying we're talking and focusing too much on it. Even with 50 in weapon, Bard will have the dmg output of a one-hander and will, anyway, never have the weaponskill of a Skald. Plus, 50w/43N forbids you to have a shout, when Battlesongs give you shouts, add dmg and speed.
Ororo7	Re: *	#28	[-]
Posts: 13 (07/24/03 08:35:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No Stryhf, that would not make me feel better. I am offering the opinion that the Bard RA is not gimp. From my perspective, it is one of the better RAs in game. Its potential to heal is amazing. For persective on gimp RAs, I invite you all to examine the skald RA. If a single skald ever bought that RA, he would truly be gimp. Yes, skalds can use 2h weapons. That doesn't negate my point, which is that bard damage is not gimp. You can ungimp bard damage, and get the same WeaponSkill as a skald, by speccing high in weapon. A skald will retain a higher damage if they use 2h (25% roughly at the cost of a slower swing, the advantage goes away when we switch to 1h for pbt). But then you match Thanes who use 1her and shield. The fact that a skald can cancel all haste and quick buffs to become the one-hit /assist wonder does not negate the fact that a Bard could spec 50 weapon and take haste/qui buffs and outdamage that one hit skald over time by 40%. I would argue a bard would never give up the utility of the other spell lines enough to get 50 weapon. In theory, if we set weap and song equal, we are down to a skald instas vs. bard heals/rez/demezz, a tough comparison. My points were only: 1) Bard RA is not gimp, it kicks axe 2) Bard weap damage is only low due to spec (you might also blame lack of access to 2h, but that's different from saying damage is sub par), but you spec low in weap on purpose to get other goodies you value more. A skald doesn't have the option to get those other goodies. Give me heal/rez/mez for my parry!
tambori	Re: *	#29	[-]
Posts: 588 (07/24/03 08:50:16) Ex-Bard TL Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* Bards seem to heal far better than Shamans. Mid has to rely on 2 healers per group to do well, just as Hib seems to rely on 2 druids. The Shaman Mend spec is a joke. Mend line for Shamans and Regrowth spec for Bards are the same wit the exceptions of: Shaman get single target and group health regen vs. bard's group heal (spec) and health song. The effectiveness of these are fairly comparable. The HIGHEST available health song (spec 45) regens a whopping 38hp per tick.....a tick which is 3s sitting out of combat, 6s standing out of combat and 14s in combat......this versus shaman's group regen which top's out at 141hp per tick. Hell Shaman's LOWEST group regen is over 2x as effective as bard's HIGHEST. Shaman's 2nd level single regen is better than the bard's highest regen. If Shaman's Mend line is a joke, bard's is right there with it. *Quote:* If you specced weapon all the way to the same level as a skald, you would be doing the exact same damage. Actually, no we would not. 1) Skalds have a rising stat that increases melee damage...bard's do not. 2) Skalds are on a fighter based weaponskill table...bard's are on a Naturalist weaponskill table. fighter WS > Naturalist WS As such, though bards specced full weapon as a skald can hit comparable damage per swing with IF the skald is using 1H, bards over time will do less damage because they will miss more, be blocked/parried/evaded more than the skald who has higher weaponskill. 3) Skalds can use 2H weapons with same 1H spec...bard's cannot. *Quote:* In fact, if you took the 50melee/43song spec of a skald, you would hit as hard as a skald, be as fast as a skald, and still have a lot more utility from the base spells. Tweak from that template to even do better. A bard specced 50 weapon and 43 Nurture (songs line) would have all of 2 Music, yes I said TWO. This training in Music gains them NOTHING. They would have a 4dmg shout from becoming a bard. Against a level 50 opponent, that spell has 60% of landing....and doing 5dmg MAX. Woohoo, REAL powerful!! So no, the bard will not hit as hard as a skald, because they would lack the shout DD (150+200dmg every 20secs) the skald would have. Speed5, end5, power4, base heals which will vary dramatically due to no spec, base buffs, single target cast mez, a 4dmg shout which likely be resisted more than it lands, single target lullaby, AE lullaby are the tools such a bard would have. versus Speed5, instant single mez, instant single snare, 2 shout DDs of high damage (150-200dmg), health regen, and resist chants. Given the facts, I would have to disagree with your statement regarding bards hitting as hard as skalds...they can be as fast, and have slightly better group utility, but that utlitity is hampered given no trianing in those lines. Trying to heal with baseline heals without any spec is a last resort option only.
Olmoss	Re: *	#30	[-]
Posts: 231 (07/24/03 13:15:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ok, Oreo Cookie comes in here to hijack the tread and you guys fall for it. I am STILL waiting for our TL to respond to SillytheBard's response that he HAS a good argument for asking for a Dex/Quick Buff. He has some great points Tirelle. Patrick 50th Bard for Rising Phoenix Moth, 50th Nightshade Moonflower Bllue,50th Warden Meliwen, 50th Mana Ment
watermnp	Re: *	#31	[-]
Posts: 56 (07/24/03 13:27:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A skald will retain a higher damage if they use 2h (25% roughly at the cost of a slower swing, the advantage goes away when we switch to 1h for pbt). Just a quick note - a skald with 50 base weapon, modified by +weapon and RR's to 65 (RR5), will have a base 42.5% bonus to their damage output thanks to their spec when wielding a 2H weapon. Prior to this they will also gain approximately a 5% bonus for the fact that they are wielding a considerably slower weapon if available (comparing a 5.7SPD 2H to a 4.1SPD 1H). This means they will have an overall potential damage output of around 45% more than a Bard. Add in the fact that Skalds have a rising stat for slightly more Weapskill, and the average damage will also be higher, meaning in general Skalds will outdamage Bards in pure melee by 30-50% with full weapon spec. This doesn't include the fact that a Skald spec'd for Speed 5 along with this 50 Weapon will still have supplimentary shout damage which a Bard spec'd similarly will not, and that the Skald can spec Parry for defense. The point of this isn't to say "Bards suck, Skalds are uber" but instead to point out that comparing these two classes is often both inane and a waste of time. About the only thing they have in common is the fact that both provide the best speed in their realm and each has insta dd's. I never understood why people use this as a basis to compare the classes. It's silly, they are extremely different classes which fulfill extremely different roles within their respective realms.
sillythebard	Re: *	#32	[-]
Posts: 23 (07/24/03 13:43:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	ok ack on topic, this isn't to compare classes. I couldn't give a dam what a skald does or doesn't have. Screw that discussion, and take it to a new thread. all this talk is bogging down the points made. I'll say again, that a bard will get a better return on a dex/quickness buff then a Str/Con. As casting time and the dodge/block bonuses are both off of the dex/quick buffs, this would be helpfull to both battle and non battle bards. Mythic has given bards a new RA called Dodger. we can show that now that Dodger is inplace, we need DEx/quick help to make Dodger effective. How so, Well survivability is in order. yes more con will help us with 1 hit, maybe. The abilty to Dodge/block will help not get hit. Not getting hit, is the better of the Two options. While we have to work on someday getting all around evade. The Dex/Quick will help now. benifits from Dex/quick faster casting More blocking more dodges benifits from str/con more hp able to carry more more damage per weapon swing. while the benifits are both helpfull, the dex/quick is more benificial to a majority of bards in the long run. Battlebards will get more survivability for more blocks and dodges. Bot/support bards will have a better chance to get off heals, mezzes non instant.
Alakhnor	*	#33	[-]
Posts: 205 (07/25/03 01:08:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't have a self-buff but I always have a decent dex/qui or str/con buff. Bards need: - better regrowth line - endurance chant
Ororo7	Re: *	#34	[-]
Posts: 13 (07/25/03 11:14:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I am not trying to compare skalds and bards. I am merely refuting the claims that: 1) your RA is gimp 2) your weapon damage is low Skalds are NOT on a fighter weapon skill table, which sucks for us. We are on the same exact rogue table as Bards and Minstrels and hybrids and well Rogues. That means at weapon skill 50, we both can have +15 at RR5 to get to 65 weapon. We will have the same exact weapon skill if we did this. We get +str as a tertiary stat, so yes, that will rise every 3rd level. +12 to Str does little for WeapSkill, it will not make us into monsters. We do get to use 2hers, I am not saying we don't, but unlike the Hib speccable 2her with 40% bonus to damage the Mid 2her only gives 20-25%. Even then, swap the example to the 1h Skald and the WeaponSkill is the same, and consider the 2her as part of the tools we get while you get base spell lines. Our 2 parry will not work as well as your evade, we all want evade. I can't even hit a stealther twice in battle, and now you want Bards to have full evade with self-buffs. So where were you going witht he 2 music comment, I know all about the number 2. Tambori is trying to tell me Shamans heal better than Bards. Did you forget that Bards get 1.5 spec points and Shammys get 1? Take a guess at what Shammy's spec Mend to? Not a single shaman has group health regen, not even ONE. They are either Aug bots for EndRegen, or Cave for DoTs. So either bards and shamans have equally crappy heals, or bards have some small spec with extra spec points and do better.
stryhf	Re: *	#35	[-]
Posts: 1090 (07/25/03 12:45:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What exactly does a Skald sacrifice for weapon viability? If you can't answer that question, then you can kindly take that 2-handed weapon that you claim you don't use and shove it into your mouth, which is obviously the orifice in which you expel all your biological waste. *Quote:* Our 2 parry will not work as well as your evade, we all want evade. I can't even hit a stealther twice in battle, and now you want Bards to have full evade with self-buffs. So where were you going witht he 2 music comment, I know all about the number 2. You're comparing a 700WS (with instrument) Evade 2 with a rising Dex/Qui Evade 7 class? On second thought, don't bother answering my question. You don't seem to be intellectually qualified to even be allowed to log onto the internet. If it truly was the superhighway, you'd be stuck in the breakdown lane, wondering why it was making a thump thump noise every time you hit that little peddle on the right, and where that smoke was coming from cause that word BRAKE was lit on your dashboard. If you're hitting anything that hits back first, you're not playing your class optimally.
Decon Winter	Re: *	#36	[-]
Posts: 152 (07/25/03 13:11:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sillythebard, I thought you made very good points. A self dex/qui buff may be better for bards as a whole. Faster casting and more evades does benefit the bard no matter the spec. One thing you missed from your list of benefits from a str/con was higher weaponskill btw. I think that equates to more Blocking and less chance to be blocked/parried by an opponent. That's just an aside. I just canceled my buff bot's acct. A 50 Nurture Druid. The buffs, hands down, were awesome. Plenty of hitpoints gained and a much higher weaponskill, the added umph to my swings was very nice as well. It took a buff bot for my bard to be on par with other classes, like zerkers even pre LA nerf. Pre LA nerf my bard with only 17 in blades beat the snot out of any Zerker that attacked me all by himself, mole morph or not. I really, really think bards would benefit from a dex/qui buff and a str/con. That's just my opinion tho. The TL even stated that she thought the same but thinks the class has a better chance at getting the str/con. I have to agree. I guess it boils down to, would you prefer a str/con or nothing. I'd prefer the Str/con. I'd love for bards to get either one but in all honesty, asking for it to help an un-common spec (battle bard) is something Mythic probably can't disagree with. It's in the report response that bards have plenty of defense (according to Mythic). It's hard to say which is better...it's probably the dex/qui. It's probably more reasonable to ask for a Str/con tho. Especially since Mythic Just granted bards Dodger. I'd bet money Mythic would rather grant advanced evade over dex/qui. Deconwinter Master Bard Heart of Oak Igraine
sillythebard	Re: *	#37	[-]
Posts: 23 (07/25/03 13:30:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Decon, i love the post, and i forgot the weaponskill. Ok, now, how to play the Mythic game from my eyes. Bards ask for Dex/quick. when mythic doesn't give to us, then we hit them with the fact that dex/quick would help survivability. Sence we are being denied that, we now need Advanced Evade. How we do this is, that we point that giving all around evade would put us on par with what the other realms got for survivability. shamans got uninteruptable end, and Minstrals new assassin like ability to climb walls. they set a president to help classes that need better defense ( they said end was defensive remember). so when Mythic denies bards Dex/quick, then they are almost forced to give us advanced evade to compinsate for the lack of them helping us in any other way? It might work it might not. I would think playing it safe with going to ask for a Str/con buff would only be partially benificial. my idea is way strange i know. but in a time where bards are the whipping boys, we need to use some strange logic to make others understand.
LaleneCB	Re: *	#38	[-]
Posts: 33 (07/25/03 18:27:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I specced my bard 50 weapons on Andred... he hit for around 90-100 on scale wearers with a MP bastard sword(slowest 1hander available in blades to hib)... styled damage
Tiralle775	Re: *	#39	[-]
Posts: 33 (07/26/03 00:39:17) Bard TL Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm visiting relatives in CA until August 1st (ish... I'm flying via Military MAC flights, so the August first is more of a guideline than a set rule). I don't have time to respond to what sillythebard said because I'm borrowing the computer from someone else (and because I'm kinda busy with family stuff), suffice to say that I've already considered the things he said and that is why I'm asking for DEX/QUI in the Nurture line - NOT as compensation for emp as a rising stat. look at friars: they get PIE, STR, CON as rising stats and were given DEX/QUI to compensate for lacking tank skill. I believe bards should have had STR as a rising stat (mirroring friars with the Acuity/STR/CON rising stats) when they were initially conceptualized, which is why I believe that bards honestly DO need BOTH str/con and dex/qui. To compensate for the fact that bards get a useless rising 2ndary and tankability, we need STR/CON... for survivability, we need DEX/QUI. Again, I've heard nothing that's changed my mind on going about getting these two self buffs with my current approach. More later as I get time. Tir
Alakhnor	*	#40	[-]
Posts: 205 (07/26/03 16:46:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't understand how emp for bard is different from str for friar as str doesn't do anything for them (beside for encumbrance). Sure, dex/viv works for wpnskl, evade and parry, but that the same for other stat on other class (were wpnskl is lead by str).

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